Sunday, June 17

Continuation, Goddamnit!

So a foul situation occurred back in Austin that I forgot to mention.

I caught an upline pass from the dump near the center of the field with my defender behind me. I stopped to set a pivot and throw. He ran into me. I called foul and immediately threw it to a wide open guy on the breakside for 10 yards or so. Now, by the letter of the rule, this throw comes back, which is what the guy who was guarding me argued. And he was right, by the letter of the rule.

On the other hand, considering that I called the foul and threw in very rapid succession, the player to whom I was throwing was completely open and the defender who ran into me ran into my left hip just before I started throwing my backhand (meaning he had no shot to stop this throw regardless of the occurrence of this foul), should that pass really come back because when I was fouled I said "foul?" I would argue no, by the spirit of the rule. If we are truly attempting to simulate what would occur if I had not been fouled, the disc would be in my receiver's hands.

I do not like the relevant mental calculus of "Should I call this foul and give up my right to throw a pass? How long can I wait to make this call? Should I just call disc-space? If I am being marked by a guy who likes to leg-hump and I continually (and accurately) call disc space, do I continually get free throws? If so, why? If not, why not?"

This is a pretty simple situation that is made unnecessarily complex by following the rules to the letter instead of accepting that the wording may be a little off in a given situation. This is a fantastic place for, say, a third party to step in...
Workout Total
30 min stretching


Sam TH said...

What would you like the 3rd party to do in this situation? Call the foul and stop play? Ignore the foul because the guy was open and you were about to throw it? I'm genuinely curious.

Mackey said...

Oh, I think you can argue letter of the rule here for your case, Dusty.

You call a foul if contact "affects continued play"--your getting bumped kept you from pivoting, etc, but it did not actually affect the throw to the other player, so it does not affect "the play," which is where matters of does the disc stay or come back come into question.

It's the same argument you use when you foul a guy going up for the disc but it sails way over both your heads--yep, I fouled you, but nope, you had no chance and you don't get a second chance because of it.

That's how I'd argue it, anyways. I find when I whip out comparisons of "continued play" to "the play," guys are usually slow to catch on to what I'm saying but tend to yield more easily because of it.

Mackey said...

PS I leave for CTY at Skidmore tomorrow. Should be a fun 6 weeks, though I worry for maintaining my ultimate skills...

heckman said...

In response to the question, "What would you like the 3rd party to do in this situation?", I would like to see the exact same call as would occur in soccer where the ref would wait for the immediate outcome of that play and allow the continuation of the play after the completion. Soccer refs don't immediately call the foul, they wait for the outcome of the play, and then make the call or allow play to continue based on that outcome.

Geoff Buhl said...

Doing "relevant metal calculus" is necessary is these situations. Moreover, being able to do this calculus quickly and accurately is a skill that makes one a good thrower. Certainly the ideal is make good choices quickly and efficiently, but this is enhanced if you can do it with mindfulness and awareness.

The rules are unfortunately a little unclear on continuation and throwing fouls. This lack of clarity stems from the apparent assumption that throwing fouls occur in discrete moments, rather than over a longer duration.

The continuation rule currently refers to when the infraction occurs, rather than when the infraction is called. However if someone is fouling you and decide to throw the disc, the infraction was occurring before and during the infraction. The thrower "may" call a foul anytime there is non-incidental contact. How does the continuation rule resolve when you choose to call the contact that occurs while you throw, rather than before threw? I have no idea.

Back to your situation, what you needed to do was throw it to a wide open guy and immediately call a foul, rather than vice versa.

dusty.rhodes said...

In regards to What I Would Like to See Happen:

Heckman (I can't believe I'm going to type this) said it best. Soccer's continuation rule is fantastic. Would it be illogical to leave it up to the offensive player to determine that the play should really just continue (or at least that the play should stand)? I mean, according to the rules, the offensive player would never cheat to take advantage of this. How to do this with observers is to allow room for impartial judgment. On a case-by-case basis using the framework of the rules as a guide, the play can stand sometimes and not others. Foul... Pause... Throw? Comes back. Foulthrow? Stays there. And so forth.

I like the thought, but I'm not entirely convinced... As for CTY, here's what you do: If they let kids go to the track in the morning, be the guy that goes with them. Your fellow RAs will love you for it, and you'll have time every morning to get a little work in before breakfast. You might even be able to rope some of the kids into working out with you. As for throwing and the like, you should remember that you'll never lack a throwing partner at CTY. If they let you, be sure to run Ultimate activities in the first week. That sets up the summer nicely. I also, eventually, finagled my way into driving to Albany during lunch twice a week to play pickup... though that took some serious doing, it was worth it. You should have a great time up there. I expect to hear how you like it from the other side!